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Question:

> Yesterday, I took delivery of an Impala Brown 2000 Z3 roadster.  Man, is > this car SWEET!

Welcome back to the fold… 8<       8<           8<           8<           8<           8<           8< 8< > But that was 8 years ago.  It seems that BMW’s have come a long way since > the mid 1980’s. After test driving a ‘96 Z3 earlier this year, and being > very impressed with it, I went shopping online.  Local prices were higher > than NADA blue book.  But several weeks ago, I found this Impala Brown > 2000 Z3 on Ebay.  The bid was $13,400.  Edmund’s retail said $19,700.  The > photos and records showed a well-kept car, free of any noticeable defects, > accidents, title weirdness, etc.  "What’s wrong with this car?" I thought.

My guess?  It’s because it’s brown.  It is an unusual color and not very popular.  But if you like it, and it allowed you to get the car of your dreams for a dreamy price, good for you! -Fred W ‘97 Z3 2.8 (Helrot / Tan)

Response:

Yesterday, I took delivery of an Impala Brown 2000 Z3 roadster.  Man, is this car SWEET! This is my third BMW.  The first two were an 1985 E30 325e sedan, and a beautiful 1983 633csi coupe.  Both were beautiful cars (especially the coupe) and both were aggravatingly unreliable.  The "big coupe" 633csi was particularly annoying.  I finally got tired of constantly repairing it, sold it for a good price, bought a Honda Accord, and swore off BMW’s. FWIW:  I was the founder of the Big Coupe Groupe, which I started as a listserv back in 1996 to support the 6-series coupes.  The list grew like wildfire, quickly adding enthusiastic members from every inhabited continent on Earth, sharing repair and restoration tips on their beloved – but troublesome – BMW Coupes.  After a while, Norm Grills graciously offered to take over the list. He built the wonderful Big Coupe Groupe website, and turned our online club into the definitive resource for repair and restoration information on the 6-series E24 BMW’s. I’m proud to have planted the seed that, thanks to Norm’s hard work, grew into such a wonderful resource for Coupe enthusiasts. But that was 8 years ago.  It seems that BMW’s have come a long way since the mid 1980’s. After test driving a ‘96 Z3 earlier this year, and being very impressed with it, I went shopping online.  Local prices were higher than NADA blue book.  But several weeks ago, I found this Impala Brown 2000 Z3 on Ebay.  The bid was $13,400.  Edmund’s retail said $19,700.  The photos and records showed a well-kept car, free of any noticeable defects, accidents, title weirdness, etc.  "What’s wrong with this car?" I thought. On the last day of the auction, I was walking home from the library with my lovely wife, enjoying the day, and just happened to remember the auction.  I decided to check-in and see what it sold for.  When we arrived at home, I fired up the laptop and checked: Still $13,400, with 1 bid and only 4 minutes to go.  I said to my wife:  "Do you want a Z3?"  She said "Sure, why not lowball and see what happens."  So, with 2 minutes to go, I placed a bid of $13,600; but nothing happened.  Then I realized – the microwave was running! It was knocking out the wireless network!  My wife rushed over and stopped the microwave.  I re-submitted the bid with less than 30 seconds to go.  Then refreshed the page.  20 seconds.  10 seconds.  5 seconds. Congratulations! You are the winner! Huh?  Nobody outbid us?  I still don’t know how we pulled that off; but it does happen sometimes on Ebay. I never thought I would buy a car on Ebay. I used to scoff openly at the idea; but recently I had heard many success stories from people who had bought cars on Ebay, for thousands less than they would have cost locally. The more I looked into it, the better I felt about it, which is why I was even bothering to shop for a Z3 on Ebay in the first place. I went ahead and arranged financing through Ebay motors, which is actually Household Automotive.  They had my financing set up in just a few minutes, and the following day a blank check arrived which I could use to pay for any car from any seller on Ebay. I won’t reveal my credit ceiling; but let’s just say that it offered me a very wide latitude for auto purchases. I was impressed with how smoothly the whole thing went, and kept expecting to find something amiss; but the contract looked good, no hidden gotchas that I could see, and no front-loading or other foolishness. Just a good loan rate, simple interest and hassle-free financing. The loan officer could have been a little more patient; but that’s my only very minor beef so far. The Ebay dealer who sold me the Z3 – Lone Star Cars, Inc. in Plano, TX – had 449 postive feedback, with zero negative feedbacks. They only sell used cars Knowing how contentious, unrealistic and ultra-picky people can be about their cars, I was very impressed that any online dealer could have such a perfect track record.  That was what made me place the bid that won the car – their exceptional feedback let me know I could probably trust these guys.  That trust seems to have been well-founded.  Norman and Brad at Lone Star made the buying process smooth and painless. They had a mechanic go over the car, and detailed it nicely.  They shipped the Z3 from Texas to Illinois for $550 – by far the cheapest quote I found anywhere.  They turned around the paperwork very quickly, and got the car shipped to me within 10 days of auction close. It arrived exactly as advertised, with no hidden problems that I could find, aside from a slight brake noise in the rear (probably just needs pads). No dents, no dings, no rips, no wear, runs and drives perfectly, shifts like a new car. The only defect that I’ve found is a little bit of driveway rash on the lower lip of the air dam.  You can’t even see it unless you get down real close and look. The truck driver who delivered the car had notated some minor scratches that I had to squint to even see.  (He knows how picky people can be…) I love my Z3.  It’s the roadster I’ve always wanted, but even better than I expected. I’m back in the BMW club after almost a decade. Looking forward to sharing experiences with other Z3 owners out there. B. Sanders

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Question:

You are 100% correct. You can literally steal a nice used car from the dealers. They have such good deals on the new vehicles and have saturated the market over the last few years with new sales, they can’t afford to let the used vehicles on their lot compete for new sales. Brian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Retail prices of used are is indeed going into the tank. One of > my neighbors just bought his daughter a 1998 Civic for $2,000. > Anyone look at late model used car should be looking at new cars > instead.  Its a buyers market out there. > mike > Buy a car, get one free > New Jersey Nissan dealership offers free used car to anyone who buys a > new car. > August 26, 2004: 3:32 PM EDT > NEW YORK, Aug 26 (Reuters) – Buy a car, get one free. > It’s hard to believe. But with a deal more commonly seen at clothing > sales, one car dealership in New Jersey has upped the ante to lure > buyers who have become blase about the usual incentives offered on > vehicles these days. > For buyers who purchase any new 2004 or 2005 model Nissan, the Route > 46 Nissan dealership in Totowa is giving away a 2003 Nissan Sentra, > usually an off-lease or traded-in vehicle. > "We’ve had a lot of interest and we’ve had a lot of customers take > advantage of the sale," said Frank Tackett, a partner in the > dealership. > Tackett said the new Nissans in the showroom range in price from > $19,000 to $45,000, while he estimated the value of the second-hand > models being given away at about $11,000. > Since late 2001, the U.S. auto industry has routinely offered > thousands of dollars’ worth of incentives per vehicle to boost sales. > Monthly auto sales have dived when automakers tried to pare back the > deals, most recently in June. Sales bounced back in July as the Big > Three automakers hastily slapped the incentives back on. > U.S. car buyers received an average discount of $4,982 on the sticker > price in July, according to the latest report by auto research firm > Edmunds.com. Full-size sport utility vehicles had the largest > discount, of nearly $9,500. > For August, sales reports have been mixed and the official industry > sales data are due on Sept. 1. > Heavy discounting in new vehicles has also driven down the resale > value of many cars, with industry estimates that some less-favored > models hold as little as 20 percent of their original value after five > years.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/pf/autos/bc.autos.freecar.reut/index…. > == >      "When you’re old, they say that your regrets aren’t what you did,

but what you didn’t do.  So I like to take every opportunity that I can." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->                 — Cameron Diaz

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Depends on ones point of few and their ability to come up with > the bucks ever so often I suppose.  People buy new cars because > they can afford to do so.  The average new car buyer in the US > replaces their vehicle every three > to four years.  People buy used cars, because they can not afford > the payment on a new car, every two ot three years.  People that > buy a new car and keep it till they die are a very small > percentage of buyers.  If you keep them till they die, would not > a new car with no mileage last two years longer than a used car > with two years of mileage when you get it?  When one buys a used > car he can never know for sure how it was used, or abused, of if > it was serviced properly or not.  If a used car has low mileage > it may indicate that the owner changes car often, but it may also > mean the previous owner had problems and dumped it. How do you > know which?   If you are not rich, mostly likely you are limited > on the amount of the monthly payment.  One can get a longer term > loan on a new car than they can on a used car and at a much lower > interest rate.  Why not make a lower payment on a new car, at > lower interest rate, for a year or two longer, now that they are > selling as cheap or cheaper than some used cars. My one son > recently bought a car to commute to work, it is brand new fully > loaded V8 Grand Marquis, for 18K and ZERO interest.  That’s a > hell of a lot more car for less money than a two year old loaded > V6 Camry or the price of new a loaded 4 cy VW or Civic, from > dealer that is still trying to get MSRP.

Well, to each his own, I guess. I’m a cheap SOB, and can’t stand the thought of eating that year 1 depreciation. I’m also old enough that fixing suprises isn’t fun any more, so I look for reliable. I try to split the difference, making my best guess as to total cost of ownership per mile driven. Again, being a cheap SOB, I don’t finance cars, so interest rates are irrelevant to me- I have enough cash in bank to buy new, but just can’t see any good reason to. I haven’t seen any deep discounts around here on new stuff I’d care to own. Glad your son likes his GM, and I wish him well with it, but as a daily driver, I think I’d like the Camry better. (Only Panther platform that would interest me at all is a P71, but almost all of those get purely beat to death before they hit resale market.) And going lower on the food chain, I’d rather have a slightly-used real car than any of the entry-level new beer cans. aem sends…

Response:

Depends on ones point of few and their ability to come up with the bucks ever so often I suppose.  People buy new cars because they can afford to do so.  The average new car buyer in the US replaces their vehicle every three to four years.  People buy used cars, because they can not afford the payment on a new car, every two ot three years.  People that buy a new car and keep it till they die are a very small percentage of buyers.  If you keep them till they die, would not a new car with no mileage last two years longer than a used car with two years of mileage when you get it?  When one buys a used car he can never know for sure how it was used, or abused, of if it was serviced properly or not.  If a used car has low mileage it may indicate that the owner changes car often, but it may also mean the previous owner had problems and dumped it. How do you know which?   If you are not rich, mostly likely you are limited on the amount of the monthly payment.  One can get a longer term loan on a new car than they can on a used car and at a much lower interest rate.  Why not make a lower payment on a new car, at lower interest rate, for a year or two longer, now that they are selling as cheap or cheaper than some used cars. My one son recently bought a car to commute to work, it is brand new fully loaded V8 Grand Marquis, for 18K and ZERO interest.  That’s a hell of a lot more car for less money than a two year old loaded V6 Camry or the price of new a loaded 4 cy VW or Civic, from dealer that is still trying to get MSRP. mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Retail prices of used are is indeed going into the tank. One of > my neighbors just bought his daughter a 1998 Civic for $2,000. > Anyone look at late model used car should be looking at new cars > instead.  Its a buyers market out there. > mike > Uh, isn’t that backwards? Unless you are rich,  if you can get a 2 year old > low mile used car for half of the cost of a new one, why buy new?  Some of > us <never> trade, so residual value is close to meaningless. We drive them > until value stabalizes at next to nothing, or until we don’t trust them > anymore, whichever comes first, and sell them in the ad paper for whatever > they bring. (Personally, I won’t play the inflated trade rolled into new(er) > vehicle price game.) > aem sends…

Response:

> Retail prices of used are is indeed going into the tank. One of > my neighbors just bought his daughter a 1998 Civic for $2,000. > Anyone look at late model used car should be looking at new cars > instead.  Its a buyers market out there. > mike

Uh, isn’t that backwards? Unless you are rich,  if you can get a 2 year old low mile used car for half of the cost of a new one, why buy new?  Some of us <never> trade, so residual value is close to meaningless. We drive them until value stabalizes at next to nothing, or until we don’t trust them anymore, whichever comes first, and sell them in the ad paper for whatever they bring. (Personally, I won’t play the inflated trade rolled into new(er) vehicle price game.) aem sends…

Response:

Retail prices of used are is indeed going into the tank. One of my neighbors just bought his daughter a 1998 Civic for $2,000. Anyone look at late model used car should be looking at new cars instead.  Its a buyers market out there. mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Buy a car, get one free > New Jersey Nissan dealership offers free used car to anyone who buys a > new car. > August 26, 2004: 3:32 PM EDT > NEW YORK, Aug 26 (Reuters) – Buy a car, get one free. > It’s hard to believe. But with a deal more commonly seen at clothing > sales, one car dealership in New Jersey has upped the ante to lure > buyers who have become blase about the usual incentives offered on > vehicles these days. > For buyers who purchase any new 2004 or 2005 model Nissan, the Route > 46 Nissan dealership in Totowa is giving away a 2003 Nissan Sentra, > usually an off-lease or traded-in vehicle. > "We’ve had a lot of interest and we’ve had a lot of customers take > advantage of the sale," said Frank Tackett, a partner in the > dealership. > Tackett said the new Nissans in the showroom range in price from > $19,000 to $45,000, while he estimated the value of the second-hand > models being given away at about $11,000. > Since late 2001, the U.S. auto industry has routinely offered > thousands of dollars’ worth of incentives per vehicle to boost sales. > Monthly auto sales have dived when automakers tried to pare back the > deals, most recently in June. Sales bounced back in July as the Big > Three automakers hastily slapped the incentives back on. > U.S. car buyers received an average discount of $4,982 on the sticker > price in July, according to the latest report by auto research firm > Edmunds.com. Full-size sport utility vehicles had the largest > discount, of nearly $9,500. > For August, sales reports have been mixed and the official industry > sales data are due on Sept. 1. > Heavy discounting in new vehicles has also driven down the resale > value of many cars, with industry estimates that some less-favored > models hold as little as 20 percent of their original value after five > years. > http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/pf/autos/bc.autos.freecar.reut/index…. > == >      "When you’re old, they say that your regrets aren’t what you did, but what you didn’t do.  So I like to take every opportunity that I can." >                 — Cameron Diaz

Response:

> http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/pf/autos/bc.autos.freecar.reut/index…. > es

Copyright 2004 Reuters All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Response:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/pf/autos/bc.autos.freecar.reut/index…. =y > es > Copyright 2004 Reuters All rights reserved. This material may not be > published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

This has happened before. As Yugo was going belly-up, several dealers were giving them away as bonuses when people bought real cars. Sensible people turned them down. Any car is an expense, but a free Yugo cost money. And general note- TANSTAAFL. The second car wasn’t free, it was buried in cost of first car. aem sends…

Response:

Buy a car, get one free New Jersey Nissan dealership offers free used car to anyone who buys a new car. August 26, 2004: 3:32 PM EDT NEW YORK, Aug 26 (Reuters) – Buy a car, get one free. It’s hard to believe. But with a deal more commonly seen at clothing sales, one car dealership in New Jersey has upped the ante to lure buyers who have become blase about the usual incentives offered on vehicles these days. For buyers who purchase any new 2004 or 2005 model Nissan, the Route 46 Nissan dealership in Totowa is giving away a 2003 Nissan Sentra, usually an off-lease or traded-in vehicle. "We’ve had a lot of interest and we’ve had a lot of customers take advantage of the sale," said Frank Tackett, a partner in the dealership. Tackett said the new Nissans in the showroom range in price from $19,000 to $45,000, while he estimated the value of the second-hand models being given away at about $11,000. Since late 2001, the U.S. auto industry has routinely offered thousands of dollars’ worth of incentives per vehicle to boost sales. Monthly auto sales have dived when automakers tried to pare back the deals, most recently in June. Sales bounced back in July as the Big Three automakers hastily slapped the incentives back on. U.S. car buyers received an average discount of $4,982 on the sticker price in July, according to the latest report by auto research firm Edmunds.com. Full-size sport utility vehicles had the largest discount, of nearly $9,500. For August, sales reports have been mixed and the official industry sales data are due on Sept. 1. Heavy discounting in new vehicles has also driven down the resale value of many cars, with industry estimates that some less-favored models hold as little as 20 percent of their original value after five years. http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/pf/autos/bc.autos.freecar.reut/index…. ==      "When you’re old, they say that your regrets aren’t what you did, but what you didn’t do.  So I like to take every opportunity that I can."                 — Cameron Diaz

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Question:

anyone knows if some available (pref. in Europe)? you can mail to sguglia +at+ arrows *dot* it

Response:

> anyone knows if some available (pref. in Europe)? > you can mail to sguglia +at+ arrows *dot* it

www.ebay.de, always a few in the old BMWs section (drool!). — Who needs a life when you’ve got Unix?   Web  : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk – The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

Response:

> anyone knows if some available (pref. in Europe)?

try www.mobile.de, they have some for sale in germany for 5000 up to 10000 Euros Frank — please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen – Made in Trance

Response:

> anyone knows if some available (pref. in Europe)?

http://www.linwar.com/main/cars.asp#RUU592R

Response:

We export  high quality used cars, trucks, parts and machines from Germany. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Mitusbishi, Honda, Volvo, Toyota, VW, Opel etc…Please call or tell us if you have any questions. If you dont find the car you need, just contact us so we can find it for you. Please visit our Homepage. www.shopeuro.biz

Response:

> > anyone knows if some available (pref. in Europe)? > you can mail to sguglia +at+ arrows *dot* it > www.ebay.de, always a few in the old BMWs section (drool!).

There’s a guy selling a CS shell on ebay.co.uk but it looks in pretty bad shape & there’s no trim.

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Question:

>Check out www.northerntool.com. They have a crapload of stuff. Also keep in >mind that if you think you might ever want to jack up a car and puch it >around on the floorjacks casters, a lightweight aluminum jack will fold >like a pancake if you hat a bump. Get a sturdy one if you don’t work in a >NASCAR pit crew

I hope you are never tempted to push a car that is up on a jack.  The jack folding is not the only thing to worry about.  A jack is only supposed to lift your car.  It is not meant to be used to roll your car around. Alex

Response:

> I’m looking around for a decent floor (shop) jack to do oil changes & > minor maint on my ‘03 Accord. I looked at what Sears had to offer and > most seem really heavy (I have owned floor jacks before so I know > they’re not featherweights), except for their aluminum "racing" jack, > which is $200. > Anyone have any recommendations as to where I can find a sturdy model > which doesn’t weigh a ton? Sears has a really cheap model which looks > junky to me (I tried one like this years ago & it didn’t last long).

I bought one of those cheap taiwan floor jacks 25 years ago for $14.99 and it is still working great and I use it a lot.  I think they’re from china and $19.99 now.  You have to bleed the air out and top off the fluid periodically.

Response:

|| ||> ||When all was said & done (and thanks to all who responded), I bought a 2 ||> ||ton Al jack from Sears (same price as a 2 ton jack from HarborFreight, ||> ||maybe even the same jack according to one of our posters)). The cheaper ||> ||jack from HF is rated at 3000 lbs – too little for my 4,200 lb Accord EX ||> ||sedan. ||> ||> Uh, you aren’t going to lift the entire car at once.   ||> Unless you have found the exact CG and can place the car there. ||> 3000# jack is more than adequate for any normal passenger car addressed in this ||> NG.   You can pick up one side or one end of the car, if there is a strong place ||> to place the jack pad. || ||Uh, of course I won’t lift the entire car at once; but the stated weight ||for an Accord EX sedan is about 4,200 lbs (1,905 kg). This being a FWD ||design, the front is significantly more than half – too close to the ||jack’s rated 3,000 lbs (1,361 kg) for my comfort. I don’t like to use ||things that close to their design limit (I also don’t take my underwater ||camera rated at 100′ (approx. 30.5 m) to 95′, either, same principle). ||The 4,000 lb (1,814 kg) jack has a more comfortable margin for me. That’s GVW. You aren’t likely to be jacking it up in your garage with a full passenger load plus luggage, and we’re talking about a garage jack, not an emergency roadside jack.   Curb weight is about 3200# for a 2004, with less than 2000# on the front wheels. That’s about 66% of the design rating of a 3000# jack.   But granted, bigger is better if portability is not an issue. Texas Parts Guy

Response:

||>Check out www.northerntool.com. They have a crapload of stuff. Also keep in ||>mind that if you think you might ever want to jack up a car and puch it ||>around on the floorjacks casters, a lightweight aluminum jack will fold ||>like a pancake if you hat a bump. Get a sturdy one if you don’t work in a ||>NASCAR pit crew || ||I hope you are never tempted to push a car that is up on a jack.  The jack ||folding is not the only thing to worry about.  A jack is only supposed to ||lift your car.  It is not meant to be used to roll your car around. For a smaller RWD car like my RX7,  I routinely jack it up by the rear axle, then use the jack handle to pull the rear end over a few feet.  Makes getting it into or out of a tight corner of the shop a lot easier.   You  have to be careful, and the floor needs to be very smooth and clean, but under those conditions it’s pretty much without drama or effort. Texas Parts Guy

Response:

<snip> > That’s GVW. You aren’t likely to be jacking it up in your garage with a full > passenger load plus luggage, and we’re talking about a garage jack, not an > emergency roadside jack. >   Curb weight is about 3200# for a 2004, with less than 2000# on the front > wheels. That’s about 66% of the design rating of a 3000# jack. >   But granted, bigger is better if portability is not an issue. > Texas Parts Guy

So it is (I thought it seemed high, but it was the only weight figure I had seen) – thanks for the weight distribution info.

Response:

||When all was said & done (and thanks to all who responded), I bought a 2 ||ton Al jack from Sears (same price as a 2 ton jack from HarborFreight, ||maybe even the same jack according to one of our posters)). The cheaper ||jack from HF is rated at 3000 lbs – too little for my 4,200 lb Accord EX ||sedan. Uh, you aren’t going to lift the entire car at once.   Unless you have found the exact CG and can place the car there. 3000# jack is more than adequate for any normal passenger car addressed in this NG.   You can pick up one side or one end of the car, if there is a strong place to place the jack pad. Texas Parts Guy

Response:

Rex — Great post for the archives. I’m going to take a peek today at the Wal-Mart model you say you like for homeowner use. > Having red all the posts further down this thread, I’d offer the following: > I have 5 floor jacks jacks which I use to maintain my fleet of used cars and > race cars, pickups trailers etc.  I’d rate them as follows

snip for conciseness

Response:

||Rex — Great post for the archives. I’m going to take a peek today at the ||Wal-Mart model you say you like for homeowner use. Caroline      Be advised that that particular jack *probably* came from Wally World *probably* 3-4 years ago. Dad bought it, and I don’t recall what he told me. Might have been Sam’s or Costco.  At any rate, the jack and the manufacturer have probably changed. Most of this type jack that I’ve seen seem to be red with black trim, and run about $70.  I think if you shop in that price range you should be in good shape.  I’d check Sears also, they had a good-looking 3-ton with a couple of jackstands for around $70.  I’d give that serious consideration, just for after-the-sale support. Things to check: Fit of the handle into the jack Smoothness of the release action Quality of the side plates. Quality of the wheels Handle rigidity.  Some are 2-piece and the joint is wobbly. If it has any specs or details, a replaceable release valve/seat is what used to separate the retail from the commercial jacks. Another very good option is to check the Yellow Pages for hydraulic jack repair shops and see what they have in their used stock. I’d sooner buy reconditioned old iron than most new imports. And don’t discount the utility of the small trolley jacks. I bought a nice one from Sears a few years ($24.95?)  ago because it came with a fitted plastic case to haul it around with.   It stayed in the race trailer until I bought an aluminum jack, then I gave it to my dad.  These also have a clip-on handle to carry it around the car easily.  If your need is occasional these are good to have around.  They are cheap enough to be considered disposable, but they still will last for years if you are careful not to overtighten the valve.   This is what kills  cheap jacks. One more thing:  the old-fashined bottle jack is still occasionally the right tool for the job.  I have a cheap 2-ton that stays in the trailer for those occasions when I need the trailer tongue just a little higher to swing the tongue jack down.  Or the floor jack is tied up and I need to push something in a tight place.    If I need more power, my 20-ton HF press has a bottle jack that can be slipped in and out easily.  Only needed it once a year.    A trolley jack is only good on a hard smooth surface. They have to roll as they lift, and that’s important to remember. Dang, I didn’t realize I had so many damned jacks! And then there’s the porta-power, and 2 scissor jacks, and one of those GM ratching lay-down jacks…… ||> Having red all the posts further down this thread, I’d offer the following: ||> ||> I have 5 floor jacks jacks which I use to maintain my fleet of used cars and ||> race cars, pickups trailers etc.  I’d rate them as follows || ||snip for conciseness || || Texas Parts Guy

Response:

> ||When all was said & done (and thanks to all who responded), I bought a 2 > ||ton Al jack from Sears (same price as a 2 ton jack from HarborFreight, > ||maybe even the same jack according to one of our posters)). The cheaper > ||jack from HF is rated at 3000 lbs – too little for my 4,200 lb Accord EX > ||sedan. > Uh, you aren’t going to lift the entire car at once.   > Unless you have found the exact CG and can place the car there. > 3000# jack is more than adequate for any normal passenger car addressed in this > NG.   You can pick up one side or one end of the car, if there is a strong place > to place the jack pad.

Uh, of course I won’t lift the entire car at once; but the stated weight for an Accord EX sedan is about 4,200 lbs (1,905 kg). This being a FWD design, the front is significantly more than half – too close to the jack’s rated 3,000 lbs (1,361 kg) for my comfort. I don’t like to use things that close to their design limit (I also don’t take my underwater camera rated at 100′ (approx. 30.5 m) to 95′, either, same principle). The 4,000 lb (1,814 kg) jack has a more comfortable margin for me. YMMV, of course.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Hmmm, I bought a 40-200 Nm torque wrench from Snap-On last year. It >> will last a lifetime and I can pass it along to my kids (along with >> all the other tools I’ve accumulated over the years). I have made it >> a point to avoid cheap tools – they don’t last and you might get hurt >> if it breaks at the wrong time. > true, but i dont have $200 and up for one wrench, or $20 for a > screwdriver. if i was a professional mechanic, sure. and yes, ive > broken sockets before- split down the side. > Not saying you should. I was trying to illustrate what I’ve bought & why. > You pays your money and takes your chances. > PS: How many sockets or wrenches do you break before you buy something > better?

ive only broken 2. both metric 1/2" drive 6 point deep well sockets. thats in 20 years of backyard wrenching. one was done using a breaker bar, one with an impact wrench.  i dont wrench enough to justify the expense. kinda like, if *all* i did was only check email once in a while, i might have a web tv.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Hmmm, I bought a 40-200 Nm torque wrench from Snap-On last year. It >>> will last a lifetime and I can pass it along to my kids (along with >>> all the other tools I’ve accumulated over the years). I have made it >>> a point to avoid cheap tools – they don’t last and you might get >>> hurt if it breaks at the wrong time. >> true, but i dont have $200 and up for one wrench, or $20 for a >> screwdriver. if i was a professional mechanic, sure. and yes, ive >> broken sockets before- split down the side. > Not saying you should. I was trying to illustrate what I’ve bought & why. > You pays your money and takes your chances. > PS: How many sockets or wrenches do you break before you buy something > better? > ive only broken 2. both metric 1/2" drive 6 point deep well sockets. > thats in 20 years of backyard wrenching. one was done using a breaker > bar, one with an impact wrench.

2 doesn’t sound like a lot, but I’d watch out for impact wrenches. > i dont wrench enough to justify the expense. > kinda like, if *all* i did was only check email once in a while, i might > have a web tv.

LOL!

Response:

||I’m looking around for a decent floor (shop) jack to do oil changes & ||minor maint on my ‘03 Accord. I looked at what Sears had to offer and ||most seem really heavy (I have owned floor jacks before so I know ||they’re not featherweights), except for their aluminum "racing" jack, ||which is $200. || ||Anyone have any recommendations as to where I can find a sturdy model ||which doesn’t weigh a ton? Sears has a really cheap model which looks ||junky to me (I tried one like this years ago & it didn’t last long). Having red all the posts further down this thread, I’d offer the following: I have 5 floor jacks jacks which I use to maintain my fleet of used cars and race cars, pickups trailers etc.  I’d rate them as follows HF $39.95 Orange medium-frame – It’s served me faithfully for about 5 years now, so I can’t find fault with that. The valve mechanism is balky, and it’s just crude. But it works. Autozone generic $16   2-ton.  Picked this up because it was cheaper than going after my bigger jack.  That was 4 years ago, and it still gets regular use. That includes jacking on dirt and gravel (not recommended) and leveling a larger storage building on a slope.   Wal-Mart medium-frame $69.95 3-ton.  I don’t recall the brand, but you’ve seen them.  This is red with black trim,  looks better than the HF unit, and works lots better.  Highly recommended for homeowner use in one location.   Homier Aluminum racing jack  $80 – Still new, used it one weekend.  The only thing in it’s favor is light weight and sex appeal. I save this one for track use.  Not recommended for regular garage duty, although it would probably last. Not quite as stable is a true shop jack. Antique Hein-Werner bumper jack $50 used.  This is the kind that rolls up under the bumper, and lifts the vehicle by two pads about 30 inches apart.  If you can find one, and your vehicle has suitable lift points, it’s wonderfull. You can get the car 2 feet off the ground, Place jack stands, then go to the other end and get the whle thing up.  Almost as good as a lift.  My favorite jack.  If you can find one of this type (some are air-operated) buy it.  They are falling out of favor at shops so there are some bargains out ere. Add-on – I recently bought an item made by American Forge & Foundry. It converts your floor jack to the bumper-lift jack, for under $40.  Doesn’t fit my HF jack, only the better one. #3167 cross-beam adapter  http://www.toolsteal.com/index.php?cat_id=853&prod_id=2802   And by the way, if you find a source for American Forge jacks, they are much better than consumer-grade jacks, but not as high as commercial units.  These run $150 – $300 for what you need.   Lastly, on torque wrenches.  I have 2 of the HF cheapo 1/2" drive clickers. I use them only for torquing lug nuts.  They are probably accurate enough  for that.     I also have a Craftsman unit that I reserve for mission-critical items like engine head bolts.   All of them must be returned to zero after each use to keep their calibration. Texas Parts Guy

Response:

>> Hmmm, I bought a 40-200 Nm torque wrench from Snap-On last year. It > will last a lifetime and I can pass it along to my kids (along with > all the other tools I’ve accumulated over the years). I have made it a > point to avoid cheap tools – they don’t last and you might get hurt if > it breaks at the wrong time. > true, but i dont have $200 and up for one wrench, or $20 for a > screwdriver. if i was a professional mechanic, sure. and yes, ive broken > sockets before- split down the side.

Not saying you should. I was trying to illustrate what I’ve bought & why. You pays your money and takes your chances. PS: How many sockets or wrenches do you break before you buy something better?

Response:

<snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I personally have bought a 20 to 200 inch-lb click-type torque wrench there > (approx. $20, on sale from $30) and a Mityvac brake bleeding kit. I am pleased > with both, though I know the torque wrench is no where near top of the line and > may not age as well as the one at Sears for I believe at least three times the > money. As it happens, I found a shop vise that seemed better for the money at > Lowe’s. > It seems to me the general word on Harbor Freight is like what CaptainKrunch > said: One gets what one pays for. OTOH, sometimes there’s so little difference > in quality that a tool that is very cheap at Harbor Freight but more expensive > elsewhere may often suffice. > In addition to Autozone et al., I would also check Ebay for floor jacks. It’s > surprising the deals that may be had there. I did see a few lightweight floor > jacks there. >  www.autozone.com is searchable online and indicates it has at least one > lightweight floor jack comparable in price to Harbor Freight’s. Maybe visit a > store to see it up close. > Hopefully someone will post with specific experience and the names of the > manufacturers of their personal, lightweight (or not), inexpensive floor jacks. > I don’t own one but I have been on the prowl for good deals that might sway me > to buy one.

When all was said & done (and thanks to all who responded), I bought a 2 ton Al jack from Sears (same price as a 2 ton jack from HarborFreight, maybe even the same jack according to one of our posters)). The cheaper jack from HF is rated at 3000 lbs – too little for my 4,200 lb Accord EX sedan.

Response:

> Hmmm, I bought a 40-200 Nm torque wrench from Snap-On last year. It will > last a lifetime and I can pass it along to my kids (along with all the > other tools I’ve accumulated over the years). I have made it a point to > avoid cheap tools – they don’t last and you might get hurt if it breaks > at the wrong time.

true, but i dont have $200 and up for one wrench, or $20 for a screwdriver. if i was a professional mechanic, sure. and yes, ive broken sockets before- split down the side.

Response:

> > I’d shop around at: > Harbor Freight (if there’s one in your area) > www.harborfreight.com > Autozone, Checkers, Napa, Pep Boys, and similar auto parts stores > Thanks, Caroline (& the others who responded). I did some Googling after > I posted here and stumbled onto Harbor Freight, as well as ToolKing.com. > There’s no HF nearby, but they offer free shipping on orders > $50 and > feature an aluminum jack which weighs in at 35 pounds for $140 (much > less than Sears). Do you have any experience with Harbor Freight?

Hi Sparky, I discovered Harbor Freight only about a month ago, when groups.googling (www.groups.google.com) and looking for shop vises. The Usenet archive has a lot of chatter about Harbor Freight tools. I personally have bought a 20 to 200 inch-lb click-type torque wrench there (approx. $20, on sale from $30) and a Mityvac brake bleeding kit. I am pleased with both, though I know the torque wrench is no where near top of the line and may not age as well as the one at Sears for I believe at least three times the money. As it happens, I found a shop vise that seemed better for the money at Lowe’s. It seems to me the general word on Harbor Freight is like what CaptainKrunch said: One gets what one pays for. OTOH, sometimes there’s so little difference in quality that a tool that is very cheap at Harbor Freight but more expensive elsewhere may often suffice. In addition to Autozone et al., I would also check Ebay for floor jacks. It’s surprising the deals that may be had there. I did see a few lightweight floor jacks there.  www.autozone.com is searchable online and indicates it has at least one lightweight floor jack comparable in price to Harbor Freight’s. Maybe visit a store to see it up close. Hopefully someone will post with specific experience and the names of the manufacturers of their personal, lightweight (or not), inexpensive floor jacks. I don’t own one but I have been on the prowl for good deals that might sway me to buy one.

Response:

> I’m looking around for a decent floor (shop) jack to do oil changes & > minor maint on my ‘03 Accord. I looked at what Sears had to offer and > most seem really heavy (I have owned floor jacks before so I know > they’re not featherweights), except for their aluminum "racing" jack, > which is $200.

harbor freight sells the racing jack for a bit over $100.

Response:

> It seems to me the general word on Harbor Freight is like what CaptainKrunch > said: One gets what one pays for. OTOH, sometimes there’s so little difference > in quality that a tool that is very cheap at Harbor Freight but more expensive > elsewhere may often suffice.

im almost positiva *all* the under-$200 aluminum jacks are made at the same plant in china, and rebranded.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I’d shop around at: >>Harbor Freight (if there’s one in your area) >>www.harborfreight.com >>Autozone, Checkers, Napa, Pep Boys, and similar auto parts stores >Thanks, Caroline (& the others who responded). I did some Googling after >I posted here and stumbled onto Harbor Freight, as well as ToolKing.com. >There’s no HF nearby, but they offer free shipping on orders > $50 and >feature an aluminum jack which weighs in at 35 pounds for $140 (much >less than Sears). Do you have any experience with Harbor Freight? > Hi Sparky, > I discovered Harbor Freight only about a month ago, when groups.googling > (www.groups.google.com) and looking for shop vises. The Usenet archive has a lot > of chatter about Harbor Freight tools. > I personally have bought a 20 to 200 inch-lb click-type torque wrench there > (approx. $20, on sale from $30) and a Mityvac brake bleeding kit.

Hmmm, I bought a 40-200 Nm torque wrench from Snap-On last year. It will last a lifetime and I can pass it along to my kids (along with all the other tools I’ve accumulated over the years). I have made it a point to avoid cheap tools – they don’t last and you might get hurt if it breaks at the wrong time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am pleased > with both, though I know the torque wrench is no where near top of the line and > may not age as well as the one at Sears for I believe at least three times the > money. As it happens, I found a shop vise that seemed better for the money at > Lowe’s. > It seems to me the general word on Harbor Freight is like what CaptainKrunch > said: One gets what one pays for. OTOH, sometimes there’s so little difference > in quality that a tool that is very cheap at Harbor Freight but more expensive > elsewhere may often suffice. > In addition to Autozone et al., I would also check Ebay for floor jacks. It’s > surprising the deals that may be had there. I did see a few lightweight floor > jacks there. >  www.autozone.com is searchable online and indicates it has at least one > lightweight floor jack comparable in price to Harbor Freight’s. Maybe visit a > store to see it up close.

Interesting idea, I was at an Autozone just this afternoon and looked at their aluminum floor jacks. What about the quality of Autozone products?    Their employee didn’t seem to know anything about what I was asking (jacks, oil filter wrenches, etc.). There’s a HarborFreight store in eastern PA, not too far away, and I might take a ride there to look over their stuff. Their prices don’t look ridiculously cheap when compared to Sears.

Response:

> I’d shop around at: > Harbor Freight (if there’s one in your area) > www.harborfreight.com > Autozone, Checkers, Napa, Pep Boys, and similar auto parts stores

Thanks, Caroline (& the others who responded). I did some Googling after I posted here and stumbled onto Harbor Freight, as well as ToolKing.com. There’s no HF nearby, but they offer free shipping on orders > $50 and feature an aluminum jack which weighs in at 35 pounds for $140 (much less than Sears). Do you have any experience with Harbor Freight?

Response:

my experience with harbor freight, which is a few miles from me and which I visit often, is that they don’t offer hardly any high quality items, but the items they have are good for several uses and the money they charge.  They have many things that you will only use a few times and their prices are pretty good.  I would be hesitant to buy any electrical items such as compressors, saws, etc.  It is generally cheap Taiwan crap. But for the specialty wrench, tarps, carpet kickers, etc it is a good place to shop. The jackstands seem good too.  There return policy is not as lenient as other stores. CaptainKrunch

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’d shop around at: > Harbor Freight (if there’s one in your area) > www.harborfreight.com > Autozone, Checkers, Napa, Pep Boys, and similar auto parts stores > Thanks, Caroline (& the others who responded). I did some Googling after > I posted here and stumbled onto Harbor Freight, as well as ToolKing.com. > There’s no HF nearby, but they offer free shipping on orders > $50 and > feature an aluminum jack which weighs in at 35 pounds for $140 (much > less than Sears). Do you have any experience with Harbor Freight?

Response:

I’d shop around at: Harbor Freight (if there’s one in your area) www.harborfreight.com Autozone, Checkers, Napa, Pep Boys, and similar auto parts stores – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m looking around for a decent floor (shop) jack to do oil changes & > minor maint on my ‘03 Accord. I looked at what Sears had to offer and > most seem really heavy (I have owned floor jacks before so I know > they’re not featherweights), except for their aluminum "racing" jack, > which is $200. > Anyone have any recommendations as to where I can find a sturdy model > which doesn’t weigh a ton? Sears has a really cheap model which looks > junky to me (I tried one like this years ago & it didn’t last long). > TIA

Response:

Check out www.northerntool.com. They have a crapload of stuff. Also keep in mind that if you think you might ever want to jack up a car and puch it around on the floorjacks casters, a lightweight aluminum jack will fold like a pancake if you hat a bump. Get a sturdy one if you don’t work in a NASCAR pit crew

Response:

I don’t know where you live but I would recommend a Costco unit.  I got a nice sturdy 3.5 ton quick rise steel (very heavy) jack for $69.99.  It has a lift of about 18-20 inches I believe for taller vehicles.  Costco has an excellent return policy if you ever have a problem.  The other places generally give you a bunch of crap.  It has large wheels and rolls around easily with a very low lifting point if your car is lowered or whatever CaptainKrunch

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m looking around for a decent floor (shop) jack to do oil changes & > minor maint on my ‘03 Accord. I looked at what Sears had to offer and > most seem really heavy (I have owned floor jacks before so I know > they’re not featherweights), except for their aluminum "racing" jack, > which is $200. > Anyone have any recommendations as to where I can find a sturdy model > which doesn’t weigh a ton? Sears has a really cheap model which looks > junky to me (I tried one like this years ago & it didn’t last long). > TIA

Response:

I’m looking around for a decent floor (shop) jack to do oil changes & minor maint on my ‘03 Accord. I looked at what Sears had to offer and most seem really heavy (I have owned floor jacks before so I know they’re not featherweights), except for their aluminum "racing" jack, which is $200. Anyone have any recommendations as to where I can find a sturdy model which doesn’t weigh a ton? Sears has a really cheap model which looks junky to me (I tried one like this years ago & it didn’t last long). TIA

Response:

Looking for a car for sale? Visit LemonFree.com – Automobile Search Engine

Question:

Thanks for the comments guys. I also tend to believe the KBB is to high. Edmunds is more realistic, the TMV (True Market Value) – I think. I would agree also that any car driven for a year will lose value.. but some consumers want to use KBB for the resale value of the car! when this happens, we maybe just walk away – someone will pay it, but it’s not a real indication of what the car is worth.. and then there is the thinking… it’s worth what I can sell it for. Can’t fight that logic. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I would appreciate valid comments – thinking of buying a 2002 325i for > my > >> wife. I’ve done my research, indicating I should be paying around > $23,680 > >> (Edmunds) for this car with 21,000 miles on it. The car is in good > shape, > >> but nothing special (no heated seats, white paint). I’ve offered > $23,500 as > >> the car has just been registered. The person wants $25,000 for it. > There are > >> many cars listed for over this amount, but the ones that seem to be > selling > >> are in the $24,000 range (similar mileage and condition). The car seems > to > >> be in excellent shape – minor spill in the cup holder. > >A couple of other data points: > >325i(4dr)  Kelly – $25,000, NADA $24,875 > >325Ci(2dr) Kelly – $26,200  NADA $26,725 > >Those numbers are for the base car (no Premium or Sport packages) with > >standard options and an automatic transmission. I don’t know where you > are > >located so I used the numbers for the Southeast USA. > >Based on that $24-25k sounds about right to me. > These numbers are insane.  The invoice for a 2004 model with that > configuration is $27,635 and an MSRP of 30,070, so I can walk into a > BMW dealer and buy a new one easily for $28,500-$29,000.  Why would > anyone pay $25K for a two-year old model from someone on the street? > I have to assume the car the OP is looking at is not a base car like > he says it is. > BTW, KBB says that my one-year old car is worth as much as I paid for > it new. > In my opinion, the retail KBB figures are inflated — I see sales around > here (N Calif) for cars WAY BELOW KELLY BLUE BOOK!!! — from auto dealers. > I’m thinking that the KBB trade in value is closer to the retail number. > Think about it  – who buys paper blue books… car dealers and banks/credit > unions. So, if a dealer is getting a high price, the finance firm can still > justify a loan….. KBB is just catering to their market — and its not you. > JD

Response:

What you’re really doing in this > case is making a purchase, deferring the debt into two separate smaller > amounts, half of which was financed at a lease interest rate (usually worse > but with promotions can be good) and the latter half of which is financed at > a loan interest rate.  

And paying sales tax twice, at least in Illinois. Matthew E39 528i

Response:

>First of all, the only thing I can deduct from that, since I’m not >from the Southeast, is that either Southeast BMW buyers are idiots or >you have no clue what you are talking about.  Southeast buyers could >very well go to the new car lot and buy a new car, but instead they >choose to go to the used car lot with cash in hand and pay the same >amount of money for a used car.  Defies any logic.

Supply and Demand in the SE.  The dealers load the new cars with all options possible and the average price for a new 325i is in the 34.5K – 36K range.  If you want a stripper model, they will look around but this late in the year you will be hard pressed to find one and they are in no hurry to sell a car with a lower margin.  There are four BMW dealers in my area and they will not deal on price and don’t typically stock striped down models.   Everything on the lot is Auto, leather, premium, sport, HK etc.  No $28K models with cloth and manual.  

Response:

In June 2000, I paid $23k & tax, for a 1998 323is that had 36k miles. Its MSRP was just shy of $30k.  I had wanted a BMW for a long time, so after I spotted it sitting on a neighborhood used car lost, I declared an emergency midlife crisis and bought it.  It ran and looked, in mint condition, and has proven that it was so in every respect.  I have not been sorry for one second about what I paid for it.

Response:

Thanks, my original offer was 22K on this car.. close to your 21K.. I went up $500 due to the registration just being paid. The seller came down $1500 from his original $26,500, then we split the difference, I paid him $750 more, he came down $750.. not my best deal but a win-win for both of us I think. Got the car for $23,250 – and the reason I’ll pay this is I know the car has been taken care of, driven by an Indian lady with one 14 month old baby.. so she was not out racing the car around. Thanks for the inputs Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Had to chime in here at the last minute. > Thanks for the comments guys. I also tend to believe the KBB is to high. > KBB is based on what dealers report as the transaction price. > The problem with that is that > a) dealers fudge their numbers in a million different ways, even to >    reporting agencies; > b) there’s often a lot of previous-car negative equity rolled up in >    that price. > Edmunds is more realistic, the TMV (True Market Value) – I think. > No, it’s also crap. It’s based on what people report to Edmunds and > there are still negative equity issues associated with it. > Now, if you will permit me, I’d like to rant for a moment about BMW > new and used "values". > The world is full of people who have no idea how to buy cars. If you > are in the habit of buying or selling cars, you know that > a) Most Bimmers can be bought at very close to invoice. Stripper >    325is doubly so. > b) Most used-car dealers mark up their mid-price cars about four grand, >    which is more than BMW marks up the 3er in general, new. > c) A naive individual, or someone who takes the advice of the MSN >    Carpoint/Edmunds crowd to heart, might pay $1000 under sticker for >    that 325i, or $29,100 approx, when he could pay $27,500 or a little >    less. > d) If he trades it in a year later, he’ll be offered $21,000 for it by >    the dealer. > e) Who will turn around and sell it for $25K to another sucker. > f) …who, were he to do a U-turn across the street and bring the >    car back, would be offered $20,500 for it. > There is a great lie perpetuated by financial advice magazines and self- > appointed experts, which is that "A NEW CAR DEPRECIATES 20% WHEN YOU > DRIVE IT OFF THE LOT, SO BUY A NEARLY-NEW CAR FOR A GREAT VALUE!" Like > most believable lies, it’s based on a kernel of truth. A new car *does* > depreciate when you drive it off the lot. But nearly-new cars are always > priced "worse" than new cars. Why? Two reasons. > a) The dealer markup on used cars is usually higher than new-car markup. >    If you buy a year-or-two-old car, you will pay more relative to the >    true auction value of the car than you will on a new one. > b) Private sellers are constrained by what they owe on the car. So like in >    a home market slump, you have a lower limit on sale prices event if >    the market doesn’t support that price. The guy with the year-old >    325i in his driveway, with the "For Sale $27,500" sign, is asking far >    too much for his car because he has no other choice. If he had enough >    money to pay the car off and walk away, he’d have already done it at >    a dealer. > To all the above you have to add the relatively unusual option > structure of BMWs in the US. A Camry LE has very few options; you > can put eight grand in a 325i without changing the way it looks on > the outside. Every month’s Roundel features people trying to sell > loaded current-model cars for more than the base sticker of the new > car. They rarely succeed. > If I had $25K to spend on a used 325i, I’d find another $2500 somehow, > perhaps by selling plasma or something, and buy the new one. Or I’d > try to buy the used one for $21,500, which is actually fair… but > used car departments rarely sell cheap.

Response:

Had to chime in here at the last minute. > Thanks for the comments guys. I also tend to believe the KBB is to high.

KBB is based on what dealers report as the transaction price. The problem with that is that a) dealers fudge their numbers in a million different ways, even to    reporting agencies; b) there’s often a lot of previous-car negative equity rolled up in    that price. > Edmunds is more realistic, the TMV (True Market Value) – I think.

No, it’s also crap. It’s based on what people report to Edmunds and there are still negative equity issues associated with it. Now, if you will permit me, I’d like to rant for a moment about BMW new and used "values". The world is full of people who have no idea how to buy cars. If you are in the habit of buying or selling cars, you know that a) Most Bimmers can be bought at very close to invoice. Stripper    325is doubly so. b) Most used-car dealers mark up their mid-price cars about four grand,    which is more than BMW marks up the 3er in general, new. c) A naive individual, or someone who takes the advice of the MSN    Carpoint/Edmunds crowd to heart, might pay $1000 under sticker for    that 325i, or $29,100 approx, when he could pay $27,500 or a little    less. d) If he trades it in a year later, he’ll be offered $21,000 for it by    the dealer. e) Who will turn around and sell it for $25K to another sucker. f) …who, were he to do a U-turn across the street and bring the    car back, would be offered $20,500 for it. There is a great lie perpetuated by financial advice magazines and self- appointed experts, which is that "A NEW CAR DEPRECIATES 20% WHEN YOU DRIVE IT OFF THE LOT, SO BUY A NEARLY-NEW CAR FOR A GREAT VALUE!" Like most believable lies, it’s based on a kernel of truth. A new car *does* depreciate when you drive it off the lot. But nearly-new cars are always priced "worse" than new cars. Why? Two reasons. a) The dealer markup on used cars is usually higher than new-car markup.    If you buy a year-or-two-old car, you will pay more relative to the    true auction value of the car than you will on a new one. b) Private sellers are constrained by what they owe on the car. So like in    a home market slump, you have a lower limit on sale prices event if    the market doesn’t support that price. The guy with the year-old    325i in his driveway, with the "For Sale $27,500" sign, is asking far    too much for his car because he has no other choice. If he had enough    money to pay the car off and walk away, he’d have already done it at    a dealer. To all the above you have to add the relatively unusual option structure of BMWs in the US. A Camry LE has very few options; you can put eight grand in a 325i without changing the way it looks on the outside. Every month’s Roundel features people trying to sell loaded current-model cars for more than the base sticker of the new car. They rarely succeed. If I had $25K to spend on a used 325i, I’d find another $2500 somehow, perhaps by selling plasma or something, and buy the new one. Or I’d try to buy the used one for $21,500, which is actually fair… but used car departments rarely sell cheap.

Response:

>>> BTW, KBB says that my one-year old car is worth as much as I paid for it >> new. >All that says to me is that a BMW doesn’t depreciate markedly when you >drive the car off the lot. > Puhlease, no one can be that naive.  Do you really believe that BMW > depreciates so little that I could buy a new BMW, drive it for a year > (7,500 miles), then sell it for about the same price I paid for it? > If you are that gullible, I don’t know what else to say.

Have you tried shopping for a used BMW at a dealer? With "cash in hand" I submit that you’ll wind up paying prices in that range, at least anywhere in the Southeast. If you are a hard barginer and the dealer really wants to move the car you might get it for Blue Book, but probably you’ll pay more than Blue Book. One might do better on a private sale, but then the car won’t have been inspected and any necessary repairs done. — The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

Response:

> Why would someone pay $25K for a two year old car instead of $29K for a > new one? Why for $5k of course. The Blue Book values aren’t simply pulled > out of a hat. They reflect what average trade in and average resale of a > given model are.

When it’s a new car model, they are very nearly pulled out of a hat, because there is no resale history.  For leases, the company can very easily inflate or deflate the residual to their own ends — inflate to move units with low lease payments and risk being stuck with them, or deflate to guard against same and perhaps encourage people to buy instead of lease.  But at the end of the lease term, as long as you are under miles, you are in control — buy it if it’s a good deal and keep it or flip it if you don’t want it, or, walk away if it’s not a good deal. If you have *any* risk of going over miles, think carefully.  You might be stuck buying something that’s a bad deal OR paying a fat penalty. If you’re prepared to buy the lease out at the end regardless, put on all the miles you want, it doesn’t matter.  What you’re really doing in this case is making a purchase, deferring the debt into two separate smaller amounts, half of which was financed at a lease interest rate (usually worse but with promotions can be good) and the latter half of which is financed at a loan interest rate.  You may be able to get approval for the original lease (fictional say $30000 obligation on a $50000 car) and you may be able to get approval 3 years later on the loan to buy out the $25000 residual, whereas you couldn’t have gotten a loan for $50000 to buy it up front.  Your overall cost of borrowing will generally be higher as the lease percentage is normally worse than what you would have gotten had you purchased. With a GM lease in Canada, I walked out of a lease after 2 of 3 years and the dealership cut me a cheque for $1500.  I can expand if you like, but suffice it to say that leases aren’t all iron-clad obligations until the end.  Yours may vary. The only big risk in a lease is that you a)  Have a car that becomes undesirable and is therefore worth less than expected  OR you are far over your miles AND b)  Have a situation in which you can no longer make payments If that happens, you’re in trouble.  Otherwise, leasing is a great, safe way to get a car.  Provided you’re ok with the lease rate of course. -Russ.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I would appreciate valid comments – thinking of buying a 2002 325i for my >> wife. I’ve done my research, indicating I should be paying around $23,680 >> (Edmunds) for this car with 21,000 miles on it. The car is in good shape, >> but nothing special (no heated seats, white paint). I’ve offered $23,500 as >> the car has just been registered. The person wants $25,000 for it. There are >> many cars listed for over this amount, but the ones that seem to be selling >> are in the $24,000 range (similar mileage and condition). The car seems to >> be in excellent shape – minor spill in the cup holder. >A couple of other data points: >325i(4dr)  Kelly – $25,000, NADA $24,875 >325Ci(2dr) Kelly – $26,200  NADA $26,725 >Those numbers are for the base car (no Premium or Sport packages) with >standard options and an automatic transmission. I don’t know where you are >located so I used the numbers for the Southeast USA. >Based on that $24-25k sounds about right to me. > These numbers are insane.  The invoice for a 2004 model with that > configuration is $27,635 and an MSRP of 30,070, so I can walk into a > BMW dealer and buy a new one easily for $28,500-$29,000.  Why would > anyone pay $25K for a two-year old model from someone on the street? > I have to assume the car the OP is looking at is not a base car like > he says it is. > BTW, KBB says that my one-year old car is worth as much as I paid for > it new.

In my opinion, the retail KBB figures are inflated — I see sales around here (N Calif) for cars WAY BELOW KELLY BLUE BOOK!!! — from auto dealers. I’m thinking that the KBB trade in value is closer to the retail number. Think about it  – who buys paper blue books… car dealers and banks/credit unions. So, if a dealer is getting a high price, the finance firm can still justify a loan….. KBB is just catering to their market — and its not you. JD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I would appreciate valid comments – thinking of buying a 2002 325i for >> my wife. I’ve done my research, indicating I should be paying around >> $23,680 (Edmunds) for this car with 21,000 miles on it. The car is in >> good shape, but nothing special (no heated seats, white paint). I’ve >> offered $23,500 as the car has just been registered. The person wants >> $25,000 for it. There are many cars listed for over this amount, but >> the ones that seem to be selling are in the $24,000 range (similar >> mileage and condition). The car seems to be in excellent shape – minor >> spill in the cup holder. >A couple of other data points: >325i(4dr)  Kelly – $25,000, NADA $24,875 325Ci(2dr) Kelly – $26,200 >NADA $26,725 >Those numbers are for the base car (no Premium or Sport packages) with >standard options and an automatic transmission. I don’t know where you >are located so I used the numbers for the Southeast USA. >Based on that $24-25k sounds about right to me. > These numbers are insane.  The invoice for a 2004 model with that > configuration is $27,635 and an MSRP of 30,070, so I can walk into a BMW > dealer and buy a new one easily for $28,500-$29,000.  Why would anyone > pay $25K for a two-year old model from someone on the street? I have to > assume the car the OP is looking at is not a base car like he says it > is. > BTW, KBB says that my one-year old car is worth as much as I paid for it > new.

All that says to me is that a BMW doesn’t depreciate markedly when you drive the car off the lot. Also consider that a two year old BMW with 20-30K miles on it isn’t even fully broken in yet. That probably happens sometime around 50-60K, depending somewhat on how its driven. Why would someone pay $25K for a two year old car instead of $29K for a new one? Why for $5k of course. The Blue Book values aren’t simply pulled out of a hat. They reflect what average trade in and average resale of a given model are. — The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

Response:

> I would appreciate valid comments – thinking of buying a 2002 325i for my > wife. I’ve done my research, indicating I should be paying around $23,680 > (Edmunds) for this car with 21,000 miles on it. The car is in good shape, > but nothing special (no heated seats, white paint). I’ve offered $23,500 as > the car has just been registered. The person wants $25,000 for it. There are > many cars listed for over this amount, but the ones that seem to be selling > are in the $24,000 range (similar mileage and condition). The car seems to > be in excellent shape – minor spill in the cup holder.

A couple of other data points: 325i(4dr)  Kelly – $25,000, NADA $24,875 325Ci(2dr) Kelly – $26,200  NADA $26,725 Those numbers are for the base car (no Premium or Sport packages) with standard options and an automatic transmission. I don’t know where you are located so I used the numbers for the Southeast USA. Based on that $24-25k sounds about right to me. — The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

Response:

I would appreciate valid comments – thinking of buying a 2002 325i for my wife. I’ve done my research, indicating I should be paying around $23,680 (Edmunds) for this car with 21,000 miles on it. The car is in good shape, but nothing special (no heated seats, white paint). I’ve offered $23,500 as the car has just been registered. The person wants $25,000 for it. There are many cars listed for over this amount, but the ones that seem to be selling are in the $24,000 range (similar mileage and condition). The car seems to be in excellent shape – minor spill in the cup holder. Worth it? Thanks Scott

Response:

Looking for a used cars? Visit LemonFree.com – Automobile Search Engine

Question:

> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places to > check out on line. > Thanks > Scott

Autotrader.com and cars.com are both good. In fact, most of the cars you find (at least it was this way for me) are going to be dealer ads. We didn’t find our car there, but I did do extensive searches on both sites while looking. Believe it or not, I know two people at church that have bought vehicles from eBay in the last three months. Not sure I would buy a car from there, but I found my motorcycle on eBay back in December. Have to be careful, but it does broaden your search. Where are you located? If you are in the DC area I’d be happy to point you to the better places I found to deal with. We just got our X5 a month ago so the search process is still pretty fresh in my mind… John ‘02 X5

Response:

> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places to > check out on line. > Thanks > Scott

Car auctions if you know what you’re doing.

Response:

> Don’t know what years you are looking at, but I highly recommend buying a > Certified Series from a BMW dealer. Otherwise, be very careful not to get an > accident damaged vehicle.

I bought a Certified BMW from a local dealer last December. At the time I felt it was a good idea as I didn’t know that much BMW’s and fell for the whole "certified" thing. While waiting weeks for the CD changer that was promised me I had a few conversations with BMW Corporate which really enlightened me, such as: –any BMW dealer can take virtually any BMW and Certify it as long as they do the checklist. My car car, it turns out, was purchsed at an auction 1000 miles away. –BMW Corporate has no control over QC issues. I.E., if there is a problem even a few months later, you can only take it up with the dealer(s). There is no accountability from Corporate on whether your car was indeed suitable for Certification–it could have been a lemon but still Certified by a dealer. In fact, the Checklist is not even filed with Corporate, it remains at the dealership. –The Certification process does not bring a car up to current service standards. For  example, you can buy a Certified car with 42,000 miles and still have to come back (and pay) for the 45,000 mile service check. Don’t expect all the little green service bars to be reset when you buy a Certified car, as they may only have changed fluids, filters, tires, or perhaps NOTHING AT ALL. All they were required to do is CHECK them. –You definitely pay a huge premium at a BMW dealer versus a private party. I feel my deal was fair, compared to other competing dealers such as Carmax and other import specialists, especially when you factor in 1.9% financing. But having lived with this car for 6 months and reading everything I can find about it, I think I would certainly look for a private deal next time. I’d check BMW clubs. The members tend to pamper their cars, and would not risk concealing known problems. Maybe a bit more $$ than local sales, but better than simply buying an off-lease vehicle or other similarly used/abused car. Matthew 00 528i Sport Cosmos Black

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places >  to > check out on line. > Thanks > Scott > Don’t know what years you are looking at, but I highly recommend buying a > Certified Series from a BMW dealer. Otherwise, be very careful not to get an > accident damaged vehicle. > Good luck.

Tom, I can’t agree with you entirely. You’re right in that non-BMW dealer cars can be accident nightmares but OTOH I have found many CPOs to be of lower quality and value than the specimens in the high-end used car dealers. They all (including dealers) buy these cars from BMW auctions but perhaps to maintain price competitiveness while fetching a higher margin, many CPO cars seem to be of lower quality than some high-end used cars of the same price. There are essentially 3 categories of used cars.  The worst ones are dogs – they have major blemishes (like a crash or flood) which are covered over with varying degrees of success.  The mid-range ones are a bit tired and have some blemishes that prevent the cars from looking or feeling new and then there are the "cream-puffs", they are clean, low mileage and have no history of mechanical, electrical or structural issues. Each of these 3 categories will have its own price range.  Where the car sits in the range for its category depends on mileage, year model and the lack of signs of wear.  Slight differences in number of options do not matter as much although a loaded specimen will fetch more than a basic one. If you want the real BMW experience from a used car you should NEVER buy a car in the first 2 categories because the car will not work or feel right.  They are a waste of good money.  While I have never found a CPO in the first category I have found many in the second and I find that very troubling.  The value CPO cars bring is mainly in the extended warranty but if you buy a car from the 3rd category it will generally still be covered under the original manufacturer’s warranty for some months.  You can then use that time to have parts replaced and decide if you really need warranty. Remember: a freshly-repainted hood is generally a bad sign in a used car. Michael

Response:

Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places to check out on line. Thanks Scott

Response:

> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places to > check out on line.

Well, autotrader is pretty good.  You might also try cars.com, carpoint.msn.com, www.edmunds.com, and kbb.com.  You will find a lot of duplicates, but it’s pretty easy to come up with a good list.  Ebay has *lots* of cars, also. Consider shopping in a big market – like the SF Bay area, LA, NYC, etc. There are many more available cars in those markets than in Podunk, ND. (Not that ND is a bad place, mind you, just not many good cars there.) Floyd

Response:

> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places to > check out on line. > Thanks > Scott

Don’t know what years you are looking at, but I highly recommend buying a Certified Series from a BMW dealer. Otherwise, be very careful not to get an accident damaged vehicle. Good luck.

Response:

> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places to > check out on line. > Thanks > Scott

How about Craig’s List (depending on where you live)?  Pick a city from http://www.craigslist.org/about/cities.html and search for ‘BMW’ in ‘For Sale | cars/trucks’. — Phil Robyn Univ. of California, Berkeley u n z i p   m y   a d d r e s s   t o   s e n d   e – m a i l

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Looking for a used 3 series for my wife, is Auto-trader the best place to > look? Have looked at Yahoo also, but would like to find a few more places > to > check out on line. > Thanks > Scott > Don’t know what years you are looking at, but I highly recommend buying a > Certified Series from a BMW dealer.

Sure, if you’ve got money to burn and no car sense to be able to sniff out a good deal on your own.  BMW dealers get a huge premium for even non-certified used cars, then they tack on a bunch more for certified ones. Not that they actually do anything special to the certified cars…  In fact the dealers around here don’t even provide a service history on many of the used cars they sell unless it was all done at the dealership. Personally, I’d prefer a private sale and talk about how the car was cared for with the prior owner.  Then stick the extra (several thousand) $$ in the bank, thank-you. -Fred W

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the swift reply Joseph > I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book > time > for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at > the > tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of > hours just to get the thing dropped. > Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure… > First generation Neons use the venerable old 3-speed automatic. It will > out-live the rest of the car. The engine will also last forever IF its > had the replacement head gasket installed. If the owner can’t produce > documentation that the head gasket has been replaced, use that as a > negotiating tool and plan to have it done immediately after you buy it. > The weak points of the first-gen Neons are body fit/finish, plastic bits > (headlamp lenses) etc., not the drivetrain (except for the head gasket).

OTOH, if the transmission is hesitating or slipping between gears, it’s likely close to wearing out. These things are like old VW Bugs – nobody really gets rid of it unless it’s suffering form something they don’t want to deal with. (about as reliable as well, too – lol)

Response:

> Thanks for the swift reply Joseph > I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book time > for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at the > tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of > hours just to get the thing dropped. > Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure…

First generation Neons use the venerable old 3-speed automatic. It will out-live the rest of the car. The engine will also last forever IF its had the replacement head gasket installed. If the owner can’t produce documentation that the head gasket has been replaced, use that as a negotiating tool and plan to have it done immediately after you buy it. The weak points of the first-gen Neons are body fit/finish, plastic bits (headlamp lenses) etc., not the drivetrain (except for the head gasket).

Response:

Great  advice Thanks guys!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? > Thanks in advance > PDC

Response:

> Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure…

The first-generation Neons are shitboxes by just about any measure. Find a low-KMs Spirit or Acclaim that belonged to grandma and grandpa — much better, more durable, safer car for the money. DS

Response:

Inquire as to whether or not the Head Gasket has been replaced along with the Cam sensor seal.  There were so many problems with the 95, 96 and maybe 97 year Neons that DC has/had a "courtesy warranty" with these items.  DC most likely wouldn’t honor any sort of "warranty" with this car due to high mileage and age.  At any rate, I don’t know if you are past the point of return that if it hasn’t failed by now, it won’t.  Bottom line…find out one way or another before you buy. My 96 Neon has been good and am very happy with it… HTH Rich Arnold

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? > Thanks in advance > PDC

Response:

> Thanks for the swift reply Joseph > I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book time > for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at the > tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of > hours just to get the thing dropped.

If the transmission is automatic, the car’s worth $1200 USD less. (basically a brick maybe worth crushing).  If it’s manual, a clutch job might run you $450-$600USD, hence the deduction I noted. I’d definately not pay more than $1500CDN for it. > Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure…

They have known head gasket problems as well, plus several other defects.  Personally, I think that that era Neon is close to being one of the worst used cars.  Look at a simmilar era Stratus with the V6 in it.  That engine’s pretty reliable (or at least one of the two v6s is – I forget which). Another option would be a 1993 Volvo 240.  Very good and reliable transportation.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for?

I paid $650 USD for a simmilar condition one last year.  Drove it for two months and sold it for about the same price.  I’d say it’s worth maybe $1500CDN with the minor problems.

Response:

Thanks for the swift reply Joseph I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book time for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at the tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of hours just to get the thing dropped. Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure… Cheers — Phil

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? > I paid $650 USD for a simmilar condition one last year.  Drove it for > two months and sold it for about the same price.  I’d say it’s worth > maybe $1500CDN with the minor problems.

Response:

I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the pulse on my foot when braking.) Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to hesitate slightly. is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about the max for a normal user. Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? Thanks in advance PDC

Response:

I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the pulse on my foot when braking.) Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to hesitate slightly. is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about the max for a normal user. Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? Thanks in advance PDC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for?

I paid $650 USD for a simmilar condition one last year.  Drove it for two months and sold it for about the same price.  I’d say it’s worth maybe $1500CDN with the minor problems.

Response:

Thanks for the swift reply Joseph I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book time for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at the tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of hours just to get the thing dropped. Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure… Cheers — Phil

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? > I paid $650 USD for a simmilar condition one last year.  Drove it for > two months and sold it for about the same price.  I’d say it’s worth > maybe $1500CDN with the minor problems.

Response:

Inquire as to whether or not the Head Gasket has been replaced along with the Cam sensor seal.  There were so many problems with the 95, 96 and maybe 97 year Neons that DC has/had a "courtesy warranty" with these items.  DC most likely wouldn’t honor any sort of "warranty" with this car due to high mileage and age.  At any rate, I don’t know if you are past the point of return that if it hasn’t failed by now, it won’t.  Bottom line…find out one way or another before you buy. My 96 Neon has been good and am very happy with it… HTH Rich Arnold

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? > Thanks in advance > PDC

Response:

> Thanks for the swift reply Joseph > I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book time > for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at the > tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of > hours just to get the thing dropped.

If the transmission is automatic, the car’s worth $1200 USD less. (basically a brick maybe worth crushing).  If it’s manual, a clutch job might run you $450-$600USD, hence the deduction I noted. I’d definately not pay more than $1500CDN for it. > Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure…

They have known head gasket problems as well, plus several other defects.  Personally, I think that that era Neon is close to being one of the worst used cars.  Look at a simmilar era Stratus with the V6 in it.  That engine’s pretty reliable (or at least one of the two v6s is – I forget which). Another option would be a 1993 Volvo 240.  Very good and reliable transportation.

Response:

Great  advice Thanks guys!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking at a Neon for my daughter,  1995 automatic.  145000Km. > Looks and sounds ok.  Drove well, > there’s what feels like a slight ‘wobble’  in the brake rotors (felt the > pulse on my foot when braking.) > Transmission was not quite the smoothest I have driven, but I don’t know > whether that is a problem or if I should be worried. 1st to 2nd seemed to > hesitate slightly. > is the kilometer figure reasonable?  I was thinking that 20k km  is about > the max for a normal user. > Asking price is $2500CDN  –  is that a reasonable figure? Are there any > gotchas that you might know that I should look further for? > Thanks in advance > PDC

Response:

> Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure…

The first-generation Neons are shitboxes by just about any measure. Find a low-KMs Spirit or Acclaim that belonged to grandma and grandpa — much better, more durable, safer car for the money. DS

Response:

> Thanks for the swift reply Joseph > I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book time > for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at the > tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of > hours just to get the thing dropped. > Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure…

First generation Neons use the venerable old 3-speed automatic. It will out-live the rest of the car. The engine will also last forever IF its had the replacement head gasket installed. If the owner can’t produce documentation that the head gasket has been replaced, use that as a negotiating tool and plan to have it done immediately after you buy it. The weak points of the first-gen Neons are body fit/finish, plastic bits (headlamp lenses) etc., not the drivetrain (except for the head gasket).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the swift reply Joseph > I will see if the seller willl drop his price.  What’s the usual book > time > for a tranny replacement/repair for one of these?  I guess (looking at > the > tightness of the design) that it’s going to be a fairly large number of > hours just to get the thing dropped. > Is 90000miles a long life for a Neon engine? I am getting the impression > that the powertrain is considered to be geriatric around that figure… > First generation Neons use the venerable old 3-speed automatic. It will > out-live the rest of the car. The engine will also last forever IF its > had the replacement head gasket installed. If the owner can’t produce > documentation that the head gasket has been replaced, use that as a > negotiating tool and plan to have it done immediately after you buy it. > The weak points of the first-gen Neons are body fit/finish, plastic bits > (headlamp lenses) etc., not the drivetrain (except for the head gasket).

OTOH, if the transmission is hesitating or slipping between gears, it’s likely close to wearing out. These things are like old VW Bugs – nobody really gets rid of it unless it’s suffering form something they don’t want to deal with. (about as reliable as well, too – lol)

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Question:

We have exported the used car at the low price in quality Japan. Now, we are looking for the partner of new dealings. We can present what you expect to one week out of 75,000 cars. Please tell the automobile details which you desire. The best price is shown to the details. We expect getting a reply from you immediately. Sincerely yours, FreeStyle 1-10-3-101, Minami-Kamata, Ohta-ku, Tokyo 144-0035 JAPAN tel,fax:+81-3-3737-6120 http://www.j-freestyle.com

Response:

> We have exported the used car at the low price in quality Japan. > Now, we are looking for the partner of new dealings. > We can present what you expect to one week out of 75,000 cars. > Please tell the automobile details which you desire. > The best price is shown to the details. > We expect getting a reply from you immediately.

And if you enjoyed that you’ll certainly like: ENGRISH.COM <http://www.engrish.com/recent.php>

Response:

Looking for a 2011 Ford Taurus? Visit LemonFree.com – Automobile Search Engine

Question:

Ford Taurus LX 4-door Sedan Asking for $3600 Suggested retail price: $5600 I bought the car 1.5 years ago from Worden Martin. Selling it cheap now because I’m graduating in May and will be leaving the states. Very well- maintained. No serious problems except for slight body scratches. Interior is flawless. Had a transmission problem because I forgot to add transmission fluid but I changed the entire transmission tank already.

Response:

So it is a 2002 model year? How about the rest of the information please. For $5600 it has to be a 2002 with 60K miles on it or so (book retail value).  Any older and it is worth much less.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ford Taurus LX 4-door Sedan > Asking for $3600 > Suggested retail price: $5600 > I bought the car 1.5 years ago from Worden Martin. Selling it cheap now > because I’m graduating in May and will be leaving the states. Very well- > maintained. No serious problems except for slight body scratches. Interior is > flawless. Had a transmission problem because I forgot to add transmission > fluid but I changed the entire transmission tank already.

Response:

If you can buy one in good condition for $3,600 buy it even if you just want to trade it. The is no listing for an LX but NADA lists a 2002 Taurus SEL with average mileage of 30K as follows; Average trade           Average Retail $10,000                 $12,200   (60K miles deduct $1,500) mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So it is a 2002 model year? > How about the rest of the information please. > For $5600 it has to be a 2002 with 60K miles on it or so (book retail > value).  Any older and it is worth much less. > Ford Taurus LX 4-door Sedan > Asking for $3600 > Suggested retail price: $5600 > I bought the car 1.5 years ago from Worden Martin. Selling it cheap now > because I’m graduating in May and will be leaving the states. Very well- > maintained. No serious problems except for slight body scratches. Interior > is > flawless. Had a transmission problem because I forgot to add transmission > fluid but I changed the entire transmission tank already.

Response:

NADA is full of it.  The 25K, 2004 LX Taurus are all over dealers lots as factory program cars for $11,000 RETAIL advertised price. The 35K, 2003 program LX’s are advertised for $8,000.  All with warranty. Who in their right mind is going to believe NADA retail price on a 2002 retail of $12,200? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If you can buy one in good condition for $3,600 buy it even > if you just want to trade it. > The is no listing for an LX but NADA lists a 2002 Taurus SEL with > average mileage of 30K as follows; > Average trade           Average Retail > $10,000 $12,200   (60K miles deduct $1,500) > mike hunt > So it is a 2002 model year? > How about the rest of the information please. > For $5600 it has to be a 2002 with 60K miles on it or so (book retail > value).  Any older and it is worth much less. > > Ford Taurus LX 4-door Sedan > > Asking for $3600 > > Suggested retail price: $5600 > > I bought the car 1.5 years ago from Worden Martin. Selling it cheap now > > because I’m graduating in May and will be leaving the states. Very well- > > maintained. No serious problems except for slight body scratches. Interior > is > > flawless. Had a transmission problem because I forgot to add transmission > > fluid but I changed the entire transmission tank already.

Response:

You are free to believe what you wish, but NADA price lists are derived for the actual selling prices at new car dealerships over the past month.  $25,000 will buy you a new Crown Vic LX. Perhaps what you are seeing are used rental cars.  Specially equipped models that were sold new to rental car companies for $14,000.  Ford has not sold an LX model to retail buyers for several years.  Many dealers erroneously refer to ALL the cars they buy a auction as ‘program’ cars even those that were sold to customers.   In reality no used cars, retail or lease, are sold as a program vehicles A true PGV. is one that was only ever owned by Ford, and a window label stating that fact is attached. If there is not a label that says ‘The only owner of this vehicle was Ford Motor Company,’ it is not a program car, merely a used car that was at some point sold by Ford to some buyer. mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > NADA is full of it.  The 25K, 2004 LX Taurus are all over dealers lots as > factory program cars for $11,000 RETAIL advertised price. > The 35K, 2003 program LX’s are advertised for $8,000.  All with warranty. > Who in their right mind is going to believe NADA retail price on a 2002 > retail of $12,200? > If you can buy one in good condition for $3,600 buy it even > if you just want to trade it. > The is no listing for an LX but NADA lists a 2002 Taurus SEL with > average mileage of 30K as follows; > Average trade           Average Retail > $10,000 $12,200   (60K miles deduct $1,500) > mike hunt > > So it is a 2002 model year? > > How about the rest of the information please. > > For $5600 it has to be a 2002 with 60K miles on it or so (book retail > > value).  Any older and it is worth much less. > > > Ford Taurus LX 4-door Sedan > > > Asking for $3600 > > > Suggested retail price: $5600 > > > I bought the car 1.5 years ago from Worden Martin. Selling it cheap > now > > > because I’m graduating in May and will be leaving the states. Very > well- > > > maintained. No serious problems except for slight body scratches. > Interior > > is > > > flawless. Had a transmission problem because I forgot to add > transmission > > > fluid but I changed the entire transmission tank already.

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Question:

Does anyone own a good car in Perth that I can buy in Jan 2005 for a good price? rgds Charles

Response:

Yes. Someone does. In fact, lots of people do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Does anyone own a good car in Perth that I can buy in Jan 2005 for a good > price? > rgds > Charles

Response:

>Does anyone own a good car in Perth that I can buy in Jan 2005 for a good >price? >rgds >Charles

I own a decent car in Pottsville Beach . Pay me enough money and I’ll drive it to Perth and meet you at the airport. It’s only 5000km. Of course, it would be a lot cheaper if you looked up something like http://drive.com.au/buy/used/search_results.asp?referrer=aspx&first_r… or http://tinyurl.com/35woy and checked out the prices. Of course, there’s also a toll bridge out here I’d like to talk to you about, The marketing rights could be very lucrative – for me:-) Cheers, Alan —

Response:

It’s a big city, mate. You’ll have no problems getting a car. Be sure you check out its title through REVS: WA REVS phone number is 1300 304 024. Get an RACWA or other mechanical check too. Used cars are a minefield. Rip-offs abound for the over eager, or  ignorant buyer. Good Luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Does anyone own a good car in Perth that I can buy in Jan 2005 for a good > price? > rgds > Charles

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